Because of the clip I've linked a few times now of Jimmy DeYoung and David James accusing The Harbinger of promoting the Mormon heresy of another book called The Covenant, I listened to a Glenn Beck interview of The Covenant's author, Tim Ballard, to see what I could find out about that book. Not much really.
What struck me most is how the two of them try to sound so much like mainstream evangelical Christians. No wonder there are so many Christians out there who are confused or think Mormons ARE Christians. It's sickening to listen to them when you know what Mormons actually believe and teach: about the nature of God for instance --merely a man who "became" God and now lives on another planet begetting "spirit children" who come to populate Earth, and that all Mormons are supposed to become gods just as he did. Then their idea of Jesus Christ is that he was the human son of the human God and his brother is Lucifer. The atonement of Christ in their system wasn't His death on the Cross but when he sweat blood in Gethsemane. That's why they don't acknowledge the cross as Christians do. No cross on their temple, that's a statue of the "angel Moroni" up there, who supposedly spoke to Joseph Smith and gave him the Mormon religion. They also believe that the American Indians are descendants of Jews who came to America centuries ago.
Beyond that I'm afraid I couldn't make much out of the discussion about the supposed American covenant the book is about, other than that they seemed to treat it as something individuals such as George Washington would depend on in some sort of literal way that doesn't fit with anything Jonathan Cahn wrote.
They are claiming to be Christian, though Mormons are not Christian, and they are claiming that the American Founders such as George Washington were Christian, along the same lines David Barton has been promoting for decades, which Chris Pinto has shown is false. They referred to Washington's calling for fasting and prayer for instance, which is the kind of thing that David Barton would use to convince us that he was a Christian, although at least one contemporary of his called him a Deist, and now a book has come out about the Founders that proposes classifying some of them as "theistic rationalists." They believed in a God of providence, so they prayed to him, but they generally completely denied the gospel of Jesus Christ as God Himself who died on the cross to pay for our sins.
Jonathan Cahn certainly doesn't share any of that heresy. I hope he'll answer the accusation that he agreed with Tim Ballard about the views in his book.
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Shame on you for distorting and lying about the beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. THE CHURCH of our God and Savior, JESUS CHRIST. I know you will never allow this to be posted but I want the chance to tell you that your understanding of my beliefs is incorrect. I find your accusation of my not being a Christian annoying but your misinterpretation of how I view the atonement of Jesus Christ is offensive. Without His death, His purpose and mission would have been void. Every child in the LDS Church knows this and yet you make this and other comments as if you are an authority when you, obviously, are not educated on the subject. You cannot have an opinion on another person's sacred beliefs. As a Christian, I will not presume to know the beliefs of your religion so do not speak for me and what I hold sacred. If someone wants to know the truth of what LDS, Christians believe they can ask one of us or learn more from a legitimate source like lds.org.
Thanks for your comment. Perhaps you yourself aren't aware of the different doctrines your church teaches, depending on what they see as the important issue at the time. I got a lot of my views from a Mormon Bishop by the way, in a very lengthy email correspondence that finally ended when he saw I wasn't going to be converted. He told me of the central importance of Gethsemane and the downplaying of the cross. And I HAVE looked at lds.org. Perhaps I'll look again when I have the time.
However, your own assessment of the importance of the cross, by which it seems you intend to set me straight, is not a Christian assessment: "Without His death, His purpose and mission would have been void. Every child in the LDS Church knows this... "
And what WAS his "purpose and mission>" And what do you mean it would be "void?" as if it were the icing on the cake and not the central point? Sounds to me like Gethsemane is still the main thing and it was sort of capped off by the cross, but what exactly was accomplished remains rather vague in your choice of words.
Sorry, but Mormonism is a cult, an apostasy. Write again if you'd like to continue to make your case.
Thanks,
Faith
THANK YOU! Thank you for posting this (I am pleased and surprised) and to all who read it, please note the blogger admits to coming to these conclusions based on an email exchange with one person (although I note that it was, apparently "lengthy"). I'm sure the past 40+ years of my actively living the faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints makes me a more informed source about the beliefs of my religion. Again, I would not presume to state what you believe and what you have stated about my religion is false. From the biased use of the word "sneaky" in your headline, to your charactorization of my "God", to your completely off the mark interpretation of Christ's atonement, and your false accusation of my religion being a cult, I am telling you that you do not have any basis for speaking with authority about the LDS religion. What you have stated is not what Latter-day Saints believe. I am sorry you have been misinformed and posted my comment to help you and others who read this.
Well, I could have mentioned other authorities on the subject besides my lengthy email correspondence (it lasted a few years by the way and the man was in his sixties, a long-time Mormon), such as books I've read on the subject of Mormonism (I even read some of the Book of Mormon too), and presentations I've heard from people who came out of the Mormon church and want to inform the world of what it's really all about.
I'm sure we could get into all that if you want, but there's a lot to it so since you want to inform people of what you think your church teaches it would probably be best if you went ahead and did that. You haven't said anything so far, you know, only that I'm supposedly wrong, but wrong about what hasn't been made clear.
For instance, do Mormons regard Jesus' experience in the garden of Gethsemane to be the Atone ment or not, or a major part of the Atonement? And what IS the Atonement in your mind? Do you believe you will eventually become a god and live on another planet as Mormons think God does? Is Lucifer the brother of Jesus Christ?
Again, it is wrong for you to state what someone else's religion teaches. You have been misinformed. I found your blog when I did a search about an author. He has an organization to free children being trafficked. I was intrigued. This interests me for many reasons, but one of them is that he uses technology to find them. He pretends to be a buyer of slaves and then frees people. My point is, he goes online, pretending to be someone he isn't, to gain trust. I have no idea who you were emailing with. Christ taught we can identify good things by their "fruits" that is why I suggested people get to know members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and go to official resources like lds.org. Mormon.org is also a good place where you can find many OPINIONS of Christian members of my church but really knowing us is the best way to learn what we believe.
Our conversation about the atonement is another example of misunderstanding when communicating online. You misinterpreted my statement that without Jesus Christ dying the atonement would be incomplete. You made a judgment about my Christianity, and assumptions about my view of Gethsemane and the cross, based on that statement when the only point I was addressing was exactly what I stated. There are multiple parts to the atonement and that is one of them. I did not prioritize the importance of any piece of the whole. His willingly giving His life is one testament that Christ is God, He has the power to lay down His life and He has the power to take it up again. I witness to you that He lives and I look forward with joy and anticipation for the day when He comes in glory. Jesus is The Christ.
I didn't intend for this to go back and forth, I merely wanted it stated that your understanding of LDS beliefs is false and that people should get to know members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if they want to know what we believe. But, since you have been kind enough to give me this opportunity, I will explain one reason why I do not use the symbol of the cross in my worship. Not a day goes by that I do not ponder the atonement of Jesus Christ, thinking about and learning from His sacrifice. The events on the cross are sacred. I don't think this is the place to go into details about my personal walk and why Jesus Christ is central to my life but I assure you that He is. My extended family is Catholic and I have lived in the south, surrounded by wonderful Christians of many denominations. Although I would never presume to state what they believe, I will express my love and appreciation for them. I have attended many different religious services and found much joy in these associations. The reasons I do not use the cross symbol in my worship is personal and is not a reflection of my opinion about those who do. Because of my own, personal faults I worry that if I used the cross to represent Jesus Christ's atonement I might be tempted to occasionally fall into the trap of worshiping the symbol, instead of worshiping God with my whole heart. The cross is physical, but my understanding of Christ's gift to me grows as I ponder and exercise faith in the unseen. For example, sometimes my children say a prayer that sounds like the prayer said the day before (taking a short cut instead of really praising The Lord). If I wore a symbol I might sometimes consider that instead of taking time to really commune the way that I need to for my testimony of Christ to grow every day. I am sharing this as one reason I choose not to use it. That choice in no way means that Christ's choices and experience on the cross are not central to my life and beliefs. They are the core of what and who I am. Without Him, I am nothing but with God all things are possible, even sinners like me can hope for His grace and forgiveness.
Thank you for posting my comments. That really impressed me. I hope you associate with some LDS people to look for "fruits" that show Chirst is central to our lives and religion.
I do have the impression that you are a very sincere person who wants to love and obey God, but I'm afraid I also believe you have some important things very wrong.
I strongly disagree with your view that "it is wrong ... to state what someone else's religion teaches." Christians have an obligation to expose the teachings of groups that call themselves Christian but misrepresent Christian faith, as Mormonism does, because false teachings lead people to Hell.
I assure you that the Mormon man I was emailing with was a very strong Mormon in good standing. We discussed issues from Mormon websites among other things, but it's been years since that discussion. He failed to persuade me, I failed to persuade him, but we could agree on many political issues which is how I got to know him in the first place.
I've always found Mormon people to be very nice people by the way, as far as getting to know them goes.
Thank you for spelling out a little more of what you believe about the atonement. You say that "There are multiple parts to the atonement and that is one of them. I did not prioritize the importance of any piece of the whole." From there you go on to make some true statements about Jesus Christ but your idea of the atonement seems to leave out the crucial center of the historical Christian view.
The crucial point is that His death paid for our sins before God, paid COMPLETELY, there being nothing else for us to do to be saved, and you say absolutely nothing about that. So when you are pondering the atonement are you pondering His saving you from your sins by dying in your place?
If you really understand the meaning of the cross there is no danger of worshiping it in the place of Christ who died on it. The Mormon Church denies the cross because they deny the basic message of complete salvation through Christ's death, and perhaps you do too, perhaps even in a way in spite of yourself. Certainly this is all sacred truth as you say but it is not truth to be hidden from others as it is THE central message of Christianity and nobody can be saved without believing it.
Again, you seem like a very sincere person who loves God the best that you can, but I fear you've missed the whole meaning of Christ's dying for us and I can only hope and pray you might yet come to salvation through His death.
One more thing, Roman Catholicism also doesn't teach the truth about salvation through Christ alone. They add all kinds of things which takes away the meaning of His having done it ALL for us. Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone through scripture alone (no additional man-made works or books).
Again, you are mistaken in what you perceive as my understanding of the cross. You make so many assumptions based on a few words even though we are speaking of the greatest event in the history of the earth. I wonder if you are afraid the truth is I do understand the atonement and fully embrace that Christ, our God, paid the price of all sin. That is what I believe and what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches. I mentioned my Catholic relations and my Christian friends of many denominations to point out that religious people can be respectful and kind to each other, not to say I agree with everything they believe. Once again, the main point of my comments (which you have made clear you do not agree with) is that no person can tell another person what their church teaches or what they believe. You have been misinformed about the teachings of my church and I wanted to point that out to you and all who read your blog. I want to tell them that whatever they believe, they can go to good sources to learn about what I believe and should not take random things written by people of other faiths as truth about my church. I could say the same about any religion. You saying I don't know what my church teaches is silly, especially based on some emails you read, you cannot within reason assume you know more about my religion than I do. Attacking another religion is not the same as defending yours. I think Christianity learned that lesson in the crusades. So, please, do not presume to teach what others believe but absolutely, share the truth you have found and the joy of what you hold to be true. May God bless you and your family.
You haven't said anything to convince me I have wrong ideas about Mormonism, or even that I've misread you although if I have I'm sorry.
I stand by everything I've said so far. You speak abstractly about Christ's death for sin, rather than in the personal vein of someone who knows His death has paid for his sins personally. Are you saved, are you born again? Just for you to think about.
I would refer inquirers to the website Saints Alive in Jesus, a ministry primarily of ex-Mormons to Mormons.
how unfortunate for you Connie. its interesting that as i read the correspondence between you and the mormon that each time the mormon responded i could clearly understand his/her point and from my view, what i see is that your behavior is much like that of a child refusing to try something new. The problem is, instead of examining the WHY behind why mormons identify as Christian, ehy moroni is on the temple, why they dont primarily focus on the cross ( and instead they focus on the resurrection)...you hold fast to the inaccurate, incomplete, and incorrect words youve shared here. Like a child who finally gives in and triesdimething new, you dont have to like it, you dont have to admit that it is good, but you might be able to admit that it is good for others.
Well, Monique, I do thank you for posting here but I've got to say that is probably the most garbled irrational comment I've ever seen.
Something is "unfortunate" for me but I have no idea what. I'm "acting like a child" (amazing anyone would go on someone's blog and call them names), but that's because I am "refusing to try something new?" What on EARTH are you talking about?
You refer to "the Mormon" but I have to think you must be a Mormon yourself the way you are talking. You ignore everything I wrote, about how I DO know what Mormonism is about, a great deal. Why would I want to "try" something I know leads to Hell? And that's why it isn't "good for others" either. I don't wish Hell on anyone. Mormonism teaches a false path to salvation. It's important that at least that fact be recognized.
My intent here is to inform. If you don't agree with me that's your prerogative, but it would be nice if you'd at least make sense.
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