Beth Moore and the Role of Women in the Church; Which Gets Me Back to the Women's Head Covering As a Possible pPivotal Infleucne in the churches in the Direction of Apostasy.

The Wikipedia article about Beth Moore reports that she recently left the Southern Baptist Convention to become a member of the Anglican Church because the former holds a Complementarian view of the role of women in the Church while the latter are egalitarians.  complementarianism holds to the biblical view that women are under the headship of male leaders in the Church, while egalitarianism is the doctrine of equality of roles for both sex3es in the Church.  

Here is a video I found by someone whose name I didn't catch who lays out the case as I understnand it myself.  He quotes Beth as claiming that Complementarianism is not biblical but a doctrine of men, which is quite wrong as it is completely biblical.  

eth Moore Criticizes Male Leaders - YouTube

He also refers to Wayne Grudem's presentation of the evidence that liberalism in the churches starts with feminist egalitarianism, which is an interesting piece of information to me as I've often wondered if the fact that the churches have abandoned the head covering for women was a pivotal point in the degneration of the churchews today .   the head covering symbolizes male headship and the position of women as under male leadership.  That makes a prominent leader like Beth Moore a violator of the biblical order given by God.

She has apparently already endorced Critical Race Theory in the Church, although I'm not completely clear about that, and I know she strongly opposes Trump because of his locker room talk that got captured on video and spreade abroad.  Although that was a pretty objectionable incident the fact is that it was exposed by the Left to smear Tr7ump while they carefully protect Leftist politicians from that sort of exposure.  We know now, or at least some of the conservatives know, that Biden not only talked about what Trump talked about he actually did it and a woman complain4ed.   And we just don't know anything about the private lives of many other Democrats.  We found out about Kennedy's womanizing eventually but that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

So this speaker is looking for Moore to keep sliding into Leftist positions.  

he recHe recommends an interview by Justin Peters of a Christian woman leader Susan Hecht about Beth Moore so I am listening to that and will post that information:

An Interview With Susan Heck On Beth Moore - YouTube

Susan Hecht sounds like a  trustworthy Bible teacher who should be the main reference for bible studies instead of Beth Moore.     this interview is a good overview of Moore.

So I think I should end this with another emphasis on the women's head covering.  It's such an emblem of the whole complementarian theology of women's role in the Church.  So many times I've wondered if  the abandonment of this practice has something to do with the drift into apostasy in so many churches.  there are certainly many churches where it is not practices but the church is orthodox in spite of irt, but since my own study of it led me to such a strong undeerstanding that we are in fact required to cover our heads in the sanctuary.    

We require men to UNcover their heads and that comes from the same scripture passage.  It was a theologian who is a part of a sstrong complementarian ministry who wrote the article that destroyed the time honored understanding of that passage as requiring a literal head covering, interpreting it as meaning just that women should take care to appear feminine in our dress and that sort of thing.  It's poisoned the churches.   I've  documented all this on my blog Hidden Glory.  I keep thinking this is a linch pin issue, that wif churches got back to requiring it we might see a reversal of the trend to apostasy and a revival of the Church with the power we've lacked for so long to have an influence in the culture.    

WelThis topic is not mentioned by ANY teacher I know of, including all those I particularly appreciate as true Bible teachers.  Out here in the cyber boonies I have no ability to influence anything in the church and I don't know if I could even function in such a role, but I nevertheless hope that what I say out here might be picked up by someone and passed on to someone who could make a difference.  It's up to the LORD and so far it's not happening.  Nevertheless I continue to think this is a pivotal problewm in the churches.

Beth Moore Different Impression

 The Wikipedia article on Beth Moore makes her sound a lot more legitimate than I got from listening to the recent series.  She's written books with good titles.  Her background is pretty standard evangelical Christian.  She worked with Kay Arthur whose Biblie Studies I've always considered to be completely legitimate and good Christian teaching.

So now I'm confused because my impression was of somebody who is rather unhinged.   And that first one I saw really is as crazymaking as I said it was.  

Nevertheless I'll have to come back to her later and review her case when my first impressions have died down.  

Maybe I'm Getting a Scrambled Brain From Hearing Too Much Beth Moore

Well, considering that I really don't have much patience with all this I need to keep what I say to a minimum.  Maybe I can come back to it later with more understanding than I have at the moment.  

I've listened to more of Beth Moore and I don't know if she's making more sense or I'm getting used to her.  She still throws in some silly non sequiturs.  I still want to call her the Queen of Gobbledygook.  But as with most false teachers she says some good things mixed in with the nonsense.  Same with that book Jesus Calling.  There are good messages all mixed in with its heresies.  In Moore's cae it may not be heresies, but it is a strange kind of disjointedness and to my mind ultimate meaninglessness.

This series I've been listening to is called The Art of Growing Up which is in itself an oddely inappropriate way of characterizing the passage in Ephesians 4 she's supposedly wrapping this theme around.  Growing up into the stature of Christ knit together with the Body in unity through our spiritual gifts == there's just something wrong about the way she turns that into a series about growing up in the  usual earthly sense.    Yes it is a kind of clang association on the term growing up.  The words don't mean the same thing in the different contexts.  

The Art of Growing Up - Part 1 of 4 | Beth Moore - YouTube

Growing up into Christ is about confessing and repudiating sin, where is that in her teaching?  It's about knowing the life and character of Christ so as to become more like Him.  All the talk about finding our purpose seems sort of related but it's so abstract and so easily taken over by the worldly context it's hard to know what to make of it.  

We need to go back to the old ways.  There are some current preachers who are good but these crowd-pleasing entertainers should be avoided even when they are saying some true things.    The glibness is unerving even when something true is being said.    There's something wrong with it all and I'm having trouble pinning it down.

Beth Moore the Seducer and Entertainer

Here's Part 4 of her series on Growing Up, which that other one was part of also.  Here she's being what I'd call the entertainer and the distractor.  As in the other one she took a biblical messahge about groowing into the character of  Christ and made it into a messabgge about not letting yoruselve be treated as a child, here's she's doing the same thing.  Using the passage in Ephesians about growing up into Christ together with all the other memebers of the Church with all our spiritual gifts working together to unity in the faith, and while seeming to talk in that Christian context she does a lot of antics that are more about everyday life.  She's got a stage linbed up with props, a baby's high chair, a bicycle, car seats and a steering wheel so she can dramatize her pionts.  Again rather disjointed points but it's not as garbled and disconnected as the other one, more a case of taking scripture and garbling it with meaningless nonbiblical content.

It's supposed to be about finding our Christian calling, at least that's how she presented it at first, and I end up not knowing really what the message is supposed to be in the end.  I have to admit, however, that I have too little patiences to spend much time on this one.  It's not as clearly crazymaking as the other one but it's also not much of a Christian messabge either.  

Most of the people who are drawn to this sort of thing must not be genuine born again Christians.  How could they be?  The fare is empty of much in the way of Christian teaching.  

What draws people in such huge numbers to these "Christian" h seducers.  Interesting by the way that she has a short messabge about seduction which starts out seeming to talk about the kind of seduction a Christian should fear, being seduced away spiritually from Christ, but uses language and imagery to make it into an orderinary fleshly seduction although it's really not at all clear what she means since her terms are so general and abstract.    Anyway, SHE's the seducer.

As is Joel Osteen and all the Prosperity teachers, and all those who get these gigantic audiences.  There is no real attracttion here for the christian as far as I can see.  The attraction is just the usual attraction to entertainment with a sorta kkinda message about improving uyyo8uir life.  

After writing this I went back and heard more and she's now talking clearly about sesxual seduction.  It's a good enough message in itself but as I keep finding out in these videos it has no clear connection to the overall theme of finding our calling and even less connection with the scripture in Ephsians which is about Christians growing together into the characvter of Christ.  

I'm sorry to think that true Christians are being led away by these things.   

What's Driving You? | The Art of Growing Up - Part 3 of 4 | Beth Moore - YouTube

What On Earth Is Beth Moore Doing? Portentous Sounding Nonsense

Beth Moore is a current popular Christian teacher I'd seen in brief clip-s now and then as she came up in the preaching of teachers I follow, but I had no interest in finding out more about her until I realized she was a guiding light in a bible Study in my building.   I'd thought of her as a possibly biblical enough teacher who was wrong as a woman to comman a congregation of people but that was about it.  

Now wanting to know more about her I found a video at You Tube in which she's speaking to a huge audience for a fairly short time as sermons go, and watched it:

Your Freedom is Coming | Beth Moore | The Art of Growing Up Part 4 of 4 - YouTube

The experience needs a lot more discussion than I'm going to be able to give it here.  The experience was stunning.  I've listened to it three times so far to see if I can pin down exactly what she's doing and my conclusion to this point is that it's literally crazy-making, even technically speaking "schizophrenogenic."  

That is, what she says makes no logical sense at all.  It's a string of non sequiturs all passionately delivered as if she's saying something important.  They are often held together if at all by something I learned in basic Psy7ch yeyears ago is known as a "clang association," that is, ideas related by something incidental in the language, the sound of a word though the ideas themselves are not related to each other by meaning.  So sfor instance she starts out with a quote about how if Jesus drives all the passenbgers thrive.

Just the fact that the words "driv

es" and "thrive" don't rhyme perfectly was enough to derail me for a mome nt since it would have been easy enough to create an exact rhyme.  That made me think the dissonance was intendxded.  Dissonance scrambles your mind and that seems to be the intent and it goes on throughtout her talk on more than one level.  And this one is a side issue anyway because where she goes from that quote is into an impassioned statement about how she wants Jesus to be the driver of her desire.  

Eh wot?  What does hthat have to do with Jesus driving or leading "passengers" which presumably means His influence as leader is what we all need?  What does that have to do with jesus as driving our "desire?  And in fact what does that phrase mean at asll?

Then she abruptly switches to quoting Ephesians 4 where Payul is expressing his hope that the Ephsians will grow up into Christ our head, which of course means he wants to see them become more and more conformed to the character of Christ.  Already a switch from her passionately declared  statement about wanting Jesus to be the driver or her desire or however that went, to Jesus as our model we are told in more than one place to conform to as a model of charactedr.   

But from there she suddenly says she's going to say something very "bold" ahnd she hopes it will be heard in the Spirit rather than in the flesh "as some kind of permissiveness" or something like that.  So now one's ears are alerted to some kind of bold statmeent about our christian growth into the character of Christ.  Which is already miles from the idea that if Jesus drives all passengers thrive or the idea that she wants Him to be the driving desire of her life.  Now suddenly she launches into an admonition about how "we" let ourselves be talked down to as children  and don't claim our rrightful state of maturity and authority ovewr our children etc.  

Eh wot?

All this is delivered in a very portentous voice, very emphatic, very emotionjal.  All of it, each unrelated thought of it.  So many of bher terms are biblical that adds to the sense of the importance of her message although there is really no message here at all, just a string of wild images that bounce from onme to the next AS IF they are related though they aren't.  

SpeakiSpeaking portentous sounding nonsense was a technique of hypnosis promoted by a well known psychologist back in the sixties and seventies although I can't remember his name.  If an authority, or anyobody perhaps, speaks to you in what seems to be a tone of great seriousness but what is actually said makes no sense, it will put you into a hypnotic trance.  

Is

 that what is driving the popularity of 

Moore?  And is

 she doing this intentionally, consciousnly or is her mind just that scramblecd?   

She goes on from her impassioned statement about how we should not let ourselves be treated as children though we are grownups, which of course has nothing to do with growing up into the character of Cbhrist, on to images of the apostle Paul beaten up but managing to survive, given with a quote from the book of Acts, and something about how she is sure we would all want to identify with him without being beaten up, but only when he was being the hero and getting up to go bac k to his work, which has nothing to do with anything she's said before.  

Oh it goes on like that from one biblical quote and image to another until the auddience must be reeling.  What are they doing with this stuff?  Maybe getting somekind of message out of the fragments she tossses out, say lealearning that she shouldn't let their children talk down to them or something like that?  Or maybe that Jesus should be their driving desire?  Or that they should notice how they are unwilling to identify with Paul in his sufferings but only in his triumphs?  Which bit of this word salad are they taking to heart?  Beause I can't imagine they think there's anything continuous or coherent in her talk so I figure they must be picking out fragments and thinking they are getting the message.  But I don't know.  

What I do know 

is that in this particular talk she is talking portentous sounding nonsense.  Ande I don't know if this talk is typical, and I don't know if she is doing it intentionally or if she's just as crazy as she sounds.  That is, if you aren't just carried away and have the mental ability to notice that she isn't making sense.