Friday, July 29, 2011

Answering my recent commenter, someone with another heaven story

Just visited a commenter's blog where I found a post in which she quotes Augustine about the folly of picking and choosing from scripture, as it shows trusting in oneself over trusting in God.
If you believe what you like in the gospels,
and reject what you don't like,
it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.
~Saint Augustine~
Which is very ironic considering that that's exactly what she did on my Hidden Glory blog a few days ago where she did her best to discredit the apostle Paul as having reverted to Judaism in his teaching that women are to cover our heads in the church assembly, simply because she dislikes his teachings on women. I left her the following message:
Hello,
You've posted a number of times at my blogs, mostly opposing my views, and now I've come to your blog and have spent a little time familiarizing myself with your views.

Since you came to my
Hidden Glory blog recently to denounce the apostle Paul essentially as a Judaizer in his teaching that women are to cover our heads in church, I have to conclude that you are one of those who reject God's word and prefer your own wisdom to His despite what you are implying in this blog post.

Actually, for all their theology of free will, the Arminians (I have no idea what an "arminiast" might be) do recognize God's sovereignty in most of the life experiences of Christians. The Pelagians, on the other hand, are more directly heretical in their insistence on human free will.

Be that as it may, I suppose you believe that evidence of Jesus' choosing you is your experience at the age of three? As I have also written at my blog in response to your posts, I believe you need to carefully and honestly reexamine that experience as there is no doubt it was a deception that has misled you for many years. If you were to describe that experience in some detail I'm quite sure it would show it wasn't heaven you were experiencing, and that wasn't Jesus you met there. Similar experiences children have reported of being taken to heaven reveal that they are in fact deceptions, as I have discussed in a few posts on my Faith's Corner blog. You should describe yours in some detail in your Profile here, or in a separate blog post if you prefer. If you are truly committed to the truth of Christ you should be willing to submit your experience to the prayerful guidance of other Christians and especially pastors or elders. Have you done this? I sincerely hope if you have not that you will, as you are most certainly under a very serious spiritual deception.
A great deal of what she says on that blog is more or less orthodox, but it is presented in such a disconnected way that I'm not sure what she means by many of the terms. Since she doesn't treat Paul as the author of inspired scripture but only as a fallible man, there are probably many other ways her doctrine is faulty. This is what I would expect of someone who attributes her salvation to a visit to heaven at the age of three. Akiane Kramarik -- who must be a teenager by now or a young adult, who also claims to have been to heaven, in her case at four as I recall, came back with a very New Age version of Jesus. The young boys who have had books recently written about their visits to "heaven" also have unbiblical ideas about God and Jesus from their experiences.

6 comments:

Suzie Q said...

Amazingly, my salvation directed me to reading the KJV Authorized wearing out the binders since my youth. It's amazing that you quote Paul, who saw Jesus on the road to Damascas... and belittle stories of saints born-again in like manner.

You want more details?? Sure. I was 3. You know how ppl read children Bible stories?? Well, someone read me the story of Solomon. I got alone with God, lifted my eyes to Heaven with the faith of a little child and cried, "God, give me wisdom like you gave Solomon!" I can still remember the faith level. It was like a rock -- the power gift of faith, no doubt.

Now, I presume you wouldn't say that the Bible lead me astray in giving me faith that God gives wisdom to those who ask - without wavering?? Cuz the Bible does so state in James. So, my experience is in agreement with scripture in all respects.

Immediately, I was in Heaven. God showed me His creation. He showed me the fall of man. He showed me Jesus Christ sent to die for the sins of the world. He showed me Jesus rising again on the 3rd day.

(I believe that's the gospel God showed me by revelation. It's exactly what you preach in order to lead someone to Christ. But, God showed me by revelation.)

Then Jesus appeared before me full figure. In full glory. I saw Jesus Christ in His full Glorified Person in FULL REVELATION fully in Heaven, fully in the Spirit.

I have looked directly into the eyes of Jesus Christ face to face.

I've been wearing out the binders of Bibles since my youth. I have a call on my life that requires great anointing. I am an avid Bible student.

Circumcision is a physical act that represents the cutting away of the sinful nature in salvation. Likewise, the head covering is a physical representation of that which is spiritual.

Jesus has come. Everything we need is in Jesus Christ alone.

We can add nothing to what Jesus has done. We can take nothing away.

As Paul stated rightly in relation to male circumcision, all that matters is a new creation.

In relation to head coverings, all that matters is a new creation.


We are complete in Christ.

Suzie Q said...

You say, "Actually, for all their theology of free will, the Arminians (I have no idea what an "arminiast" might be) do recognize God's sovereignty in most of the life experiences of Christians."

To recognize God's Sovereignty only in part is to fail to recognize God's Sovereignty at all. That's like saying you believe someone is a little pregnant. You don't comprehend, or recognize pregnancy, unless you realize a person is pregnant. (Qualifying the statement to say "a little pregnant" reveals one doesn't comprehend pregnancy.)

Sovereignty means that God rules as God and King. To say God is Sovereign is to state that He rules in all things.

To say God one does "recognize God's sovereignty in most of the life experiences of Christians." is to deny that God is Sovereign.

A God cannot be a "little Sovereign" or even "mostly Sovereign" and be Sovereign.

If one is pregnant, one is fully pregnant as a state of being.

If one is Sovereign, one is fully Sovereign as a state of being.

To be "less than fully pregnant" is to not be pregnant.

To be "less than fully Sovereign" is to not be Sovereign.

God is fully 100% Sovereign.

Persons should speak for themselves rather than belittle God. For example, it would be proper to say, "I personally cannot comprehend the 100% Sovereignty of God." But, to deny that God is 100% Sovereign on the basis of one's inability to comprehend His incomparable greatness is to presume.

Arminiast free will error is Pelagian error and semi-pelagian error at core. Same spirit of error.

"Are Arminians Semi-Pelagian?

* Arminianism
* Depravity
* Grace
* Prevenient Grace

Calling Arminians Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian is somewhat of a tradition within Calvinism. The Synod of Dort repeatedly did so, clearing the path for generations to come. I recently completed a study on John Owen’s book Death of Death in the Death of Christ, where he relates Arminians with Pelagians. Additionally, J. I. Packer calls Arminians Semi-Pelagian in his introduction to Death of Death in the Death of Christ." (I stand with the Reformers in the Synod of Dort, John Owen and JI Packer in calling Arminians semi-pelagian).

Suzie Q said...

*So as not to confuse you, I quoted someone who states the Synod of Dordt, Owen, and Packer all state arminiasm is semi-pelagian heresy. I did put it in quotes.

Faith said...

Suzie, you are very adept at theological talk and it must sound convincing to many people, referring to scripture and to so many greats of the Reformed tradition, but you have a way of flinging it around so that it comes off as rote quotations or "sound bites" and it's very hard to tell what you really believe from all that reading. As for the KJV, even the Mormons use that. And since you reject Paul's writings as inspired by God, you clearly don't accept God's authority no matter what Bible you might prefer.

Paul was an apostle of God, an author of His word, we have no apostles of that caliber since the canon was closed. And if you are a follower of the Reformed writers you ought to know that they are particularly strong on there being no apostles or prophets since then. They wouldn't accept your testimony of going to heaven as authentic for a moment. In fact I'm much more open to supernatural experiences for today than they are. You mention Paul Washer on your blog, who is right now one of the best-known preachers of the Reformed tradition, but Washer wouldn't accept your story at all.

You are right that Arminianism is a form of semi-pelagianism, but in your post at your blog you seem just a bit too eager to put them down, apparently because you like the Calvinist doctrine of election since you think your own testimony shows that you were particularly chosen by God. But there are many truly godly Arminians I feel obliged to defend against such a blanket dismissal, A W Tozer being one, Wesley another. (And I still have no idea where you are getting that odd word "arminiast.")

I'm sorry if I "belittled" you, . I'm glad you came here to answer me and thank you for saying more about your experience at three. I have to say, however, that you still haven't really described it. You say God showed you the creation, the fall, Jesus and so on but you give no actual description of any of that, and IF you are telling the truth at all, I suspect what you "saw" was a pantomime put on in order to deceive you.

Faith said...

Circumcision is a physical act that represents the cutting away of the sinful nature in salvation. Likewise, the head covering is a physical representation of that which is spiritual.

You cannot pit one part of scripture against another part like this. That's what unbelievers do. We are obliged to trust all of it as given by God and not "lean unto our own understanding."

In my studies of the head covering, I came to the conclusion that it is all about the physical head as the symbol of personal authority. Physically literally covering the woman's head shows the recognition of God's creation ordinance about the headship (authority) of the man over the woman. (Although you say it's a spiritual thing rather than a physical one, I doubt you accept the idea of male authority anyway. Am I right?) It conceals the "glory of man" which is woman, so that the glory of Christ is displayed in worship and prayer, it also conceals the glory of woman, which is her hair, and it is a clear sign to the watching angels that God's creation ordinance is being respected. Only an outer physical symbol could accomplish all this.

But the bottom line is, as Paul says in his parting verse of that passage, the apostolic churches all have this custom and that is meant to silence the contention in the Corinthian church.

Your dismissal of Paul is what feminists do, and unbelievers. The Christians get around this requirement by making it mean something other than a covering over the head and hair. That's bad enough, but at least they acknowledge the integrity of scripture and Paul's authority.

Faith said...

You want more details?? Sure. I was 3. You know how ppl read children Bible stories?? Well, someone read me the story of Solomon. I got alone with God, lifted my eyes to Heaven with the faith of a little child and cried, "God, give me wisdom like you gave Solomon!" I can still remember the faith level. It was like a rock -- the power gift of faith, no doubt.

Now, I presume you wouldn't say that the Bible lead me astray in giving me faith that God gives wisdom to those who ask - without wavering?? Cuz the Bible does so state in James. So, my experience is in agreement with scripture in all respects.

Immediately, I was in Heaven. God showed me His creation. He showed me the fall of man. He showed me Jesus Christ sent to die for the sins of the world. He showed me Jesus rising again on the 3rd day.

(I believe that's the gospel God showed me by revelation. It's exactly what you preach in order to lead someone to Christ. But, God showed me by revelation.)


Suzie, you claim all this happened when you were THREE? This is just too unlikely a story to believe even about the most precocious three-year-old imaginable. How could a three-year-old grasp anything meaningful about the Creation or the Fall or the meaning of Christ's death for us?

And the idea that a three-year-old would pray like an adult for the wisdom of Solomon is no less outlandish -- especially the way you describe it as "lifting your eyes to heaven" and so on. Suzie, that artificial way of talking gives away the fiction of all this.

Are you lying? Are you deceiving yourself by some elaborate fantasy of your own? What DID actually happen? One way or another you are seriously seriously deceived. You really need to get honest with yourself about these things.